Thursday, August 11, 2011


Hey there,

I woke up super early this morning. I didn't eat a lot of fruit yesterday and had surprisingly good energy at work and didn't sleep much last night. I'm very intrigued by this.

After reading Angela Stokes' FAQS page, which i posted yesterday, i must say i felt very enlightened as to why i might be losing hair, experiencing stalled weight loss and depression.

I ascertain from the FAQS that Angela's advice would center around focusing the raw diet on greens (juices, salads, spirulina) and fat (avo, nuts, seeds), instead of on fruit, and taking regular colonics in such cases for hairloss, stalled weight loss, depression.

I received a passionate comment from Debbie who disagreed strongly with this prescription. I wanted to respond fully. My comment had too many words so i thought i'd make it a blog entry.

Thanks Debbie for your point of view and your passion. I appreciate your response, but am curious to investigate Stokes opinions/prescription more.

Here is Debbie's comment and my response below.

Wishing you a wonderful joyfilled day.

xoxo michelle joy

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Hi Michelle,

I think Doug Graham (you're favorite) was very clear that you will have problems if you eat a lot fruit with fat. It seems he knew what he was talking about. If you look at what 80 10 10'ers eat every day and what Angela eats every day (she puts this in her blog), it's a no-brainer for me. Angela practically starves herself.

I'm feeling fantastic these days eating tons of fruit, some greens and NO NUTS, OILS, OR AVOCADOS. I have no hair loss, lots of energy and don't feel the need to pay someone to stick something up my butt (although I turn 50 this year and so my doctor says i should have a colonoscopy, so I guess I will pay someone to put something up my butt).

I just thought you should have a second opinion before you start spending money. Next thing, you'll be buying all kinds of supplements and you still won't feel great. You need to cut the fat out of your diet. JMO

Fruit is what we are meant to eat - just look at Megan.

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Hi Debbie,

Is this Debbie of "Adventures in the Raw?" How ya doin? Last i read, you were not blogging and doing the paleo diet and feeling good but still desiring to be a fruitarian. If this is you, i'm glad you made it to fruitarian land! You sound ecstatic with it and like it is really working for you. I'm happy!

I hear what you are saying loud and clear. It is what i hear all day at work surrounded by fruitarians!

Let me address your points.

HAIRLOSS: I WAS losing my hair when i was working with doug graham and eating all fruit and a little greens. Frankly, i didn't like it then and i don't like it now. He didn't seem to have an answer for it and said it was genetic and that i should buy a wig.

My hair grew back on cooked over this last year. I don't know what to say about that. The way i'm seeing it, i must have been getting nutrients on cooked that i was missing??? I don't know.

Sure, Megan eats all fruit and doesn't lose her hair. She never had an issue with hairloss eigher. On the other hand, I ate all fruit and did. Hairloss may be one of those issues that affects individuals and not everyone as a whole, i'm thinking? Hairloss has been an issue of mine since high school days. I've always been thinning. Recently, it started to come out in handfuls after 11 weeks back on raw.

Instinctively, i started adding in Spirulina. Call me crazy, but i think it's working. Stokes advises Spirulina for hairloss. Wow, i thought, when i read that. That was my idea, too.

When i was at OHI, i took Barley Green 3x/day, juiced wheatgrass a few times a week (when i could stomach it) and drank green juice weekly. I should start that up again.

DOUG GRAHAM: Yes, you are correct, Doug Graham is not my favorite guy, but i don't see that as my fault. I would have been happy to adore him! I tried! It was really his arrogrant personality, lack of caring and lack of emotional sensitivity while we worked together that was hurtful. I wanted to love him. I'd run to my email to see what he said and would be devastated. On many occasions, i was in deep emotional detox and his lack of comfort was startling.

I've since talked to a fruitarian who knows Graham well and said he is renowned for doing poorly with counseling women, and is insensitive to women's issues in general. This fruitarian said women have more success working with his wife, that she is more sensitive and nurturing.

I would agree if a person needs comfort and nurturing as i apparently do, Doug Graham is not the person to give it.

STOKES RECOMMENDATION: The reason i'm so intrigued about what Angela suggests is because it sounds familiar. At OHI, we only ate watermelon for breakfast, no other fruit, ever.

And i had colonics regularly during my 8 mos there.

And my diet was mostly sprouts, greens, green juices, fermented foods, and fats - soaked seeds in seed cheeze and lots of flax crackers.

I did so well on this plan, losing all of that weight, 140 lbs, so quickly, in 8 mos.

I also exercised so much. I rarely felt depressed or lacking for motivation to exercise!!!

I'm intrigued because now i've been eating ALOT of fruit, mixed with a lot of fat, which i know is a bad mix, but wasn't sure which way to go with it. I didn't realize there is the Stokes option of getting rid of so much fruit and not seeing the fat as a bad thing. That she sees a diet higher in fat and greens as BETTER than a diet high in fruit is a radical concept coming from Arnold's Way, where Arnold prescribes fruitarian for everyone.

I try not to judge. I find it INTERESTING! Raw is certainly controvertial.

On a lot of fruit now, mixed with fat, I'm depressed, don't want to exercise.

Yes, I could go the 811 route and cut out all of the fat, but I've been completely resistant to doing that.

I'm going to decide to respect that resistance, investigate Angela's idea, and see what happens.

I think i'm just off balance. Stokes talks alot about miscombining. I think i've been doing a fair amount of that, eating something nutty followed by a huge banana shake. My energy goes way way down. So, maybe it's not necessarily that i'm eating "too much fat," but that i'm miscombining so poorly. Yesterday at work, i puposely focused on juices and fat and didn't eat much fruit to see what would happen. Much to my surprise, I was shocked to have energy all day and a distinct feeling of depression lifting. That was interesting to say the least. I also didn't need to sleep much.

When i think of Dustin Kellogg , with his amazing raw chef wife,, Meredith/Padmapani makes the best raw food i ever ate, I come away amazed. How did he lose over 100 lbs eating gourmet raw? I have asked this since DAY ONE of this blog.

I come to understand MAYBE the reason why? He didn't eat a lot of fruit.

From what i know, Dustin didn't exercise formally at all, juiced greens every morning, skipped lunch, and ate gourmet for dinner and some raw snacks later and didn't eat a lot of fruit.


Since i love gourmet, i've always been dying to get to get to a place of guilt-free gourmet eating. It fits my personality. It's so creative. It's so delish.

You always wanted to be a fruitarian. I never did. I always wanted to eat gourmet!

I understand the 811 philosophy, lived it for a short while, had multiple spurts of doing it for weeks on end, but i never wanted to do it fulltime. There was difficulty for me to indulge in gourmet raw with 811 because I'd gain weight immediately and in huge amounts.

Why was this happening??? I didn't understand why. At OHI, i routinely indulged in gourmet raw, felt like i was in heaven, ate it 1-4x/week, and the weight dropped off of me, and when i ate gourmet raw meals, my weight would go up 3 lbs, instead of 25-35 lbs like it would after 811.

I didn't eat a lot of fruit at OHI.

Also, when i ate gourmet raw at OHI, i rarely felt compelled to. After 811? I was like a fat sucking machine. It was like a horrible backlash. Many people on fruit at Arnolds feel that way about fat. When they taste it on 811, they want to dive into it and eat every fatty thing in sight.

The highly effective time in my life on raw at OHI....intrigues me continually. What was i doing to make it work then and why doesn't it now??? What i was doing there is closer to what Stokes prescribes.

COLONICS: Colonics don't really bother me philosophically. I was educated in raw on them at OHI. I think i did find benefit from them, so i'm not turned off to the idea of trying them again. Alot of raw foodists believe in them.

FRUITARIAN VS. OTHERS - I'm so glad all fruit and no fat is working for you and you are able to maintain that lifestyle long term, feeling great and not suffering any ill effects like hairloss or loss of energy. That is awesome!

I can honestly say with all my heart, i never wanted to be a fruitarian, and since i was introduced to raw on a totally not-fruitarian raw diet and did so well on it, 811 has never seemed like "the answer" to me.

Megan believes it is for her. I'm so glad! She is finding terrific benefits and is feeling great!

I also know another fruitarian who is suffering horrible effects from all sweet fruit. She is a mystery to Arnold, who advocates sweet fruit. She followed his prescription and did worse and worse, breaking out in a full body hives. She since visited Anna Inez, the raw healer i went to, who is a Natural Hygienist. Anna Inez put Joy on celery juice and took her OFF of ALL sweet fruit. Almost overnight, the hives dissappeared.

I also have another friend, Susan Aman, who has since added canned sardines into her and her husbands mostly raw diet...and they have never felt better. Susan and her husband were advised by their holistic dr to cut out so much fruit. As a result, they focus on greens, green juice, fat, and sardines. They say they are experiencing sky rocketing health as a result. They eat cooked quinoa and sardines for breakfast! Who am i to judge? Their holistic practitioner tests their blood monthly. When they were eating all of the fruit and felt poorly, Susan was losing her hair, too, and her nails were brittle like mine, their blood was so lacking, the dr said their health was, on a scale of 1-10, a 2. They have since climbed up the ladder on the scale. They do take some supplements. I don't judge, i just say, wow!

I don't know if there is one answer for everyone. I see a lot of variation of results at Arnold's Way.

WHAT ANGELA EATS: I do see what Angela eats daily and it's true, a lot of her calories come in the form of liquid - coconut water and juices.

And i saw her eat in person at her wedding and she eats very slowly, very deliberately and yes, small portions. Matt, her husband, advocates eating less and less food for good health, whereas Graham suggests eating more and more. Their viewpoints are radically opposed.

The fact that Graham was telling me to stretch my belly with 50 nectarines at a time so i wouldn't be hungry...seemed nuts. I don't know. It didn't appeal to me.

Angela seems to eat one gourmet meal a day, and she does have some fruit it seems every day.

When i was in OHI, i would eat 1x/day if i had a gourmet meal and just walked and walked and walked. My energy felt great.

OVERALL - I understand the philosophy 'we are supposed to eat fruit, we were made that way.' Well, at OHI, we ate ALOT of fruit - just not SWEET FRUIT. We ate lots of cucumber, tomato, peppers.

Frankly, I'm interested to experiment eating more greens, taking more Spirulina, beginning to juice again, let go of the vigilant fat counter....and see what happens.

I'd rather not judge...just experiment!

If i feel horrible, the hairloss doesn't stop, i gain weight and get more depressed, i'll listen to that! My tooth sensitivity has also been awful on all of the fruit.

Stokes says we can become "overly acidic" eating too much alkeline fruit. I'm curious to find out what that means!

I'll let you know if i feel better or worse!

Best to you,

xoxo michelle joy


Debbie said...

Yes, it is me. I did do paleo for awhile and was always constipated and lacked energy. I feel best on low fat raw vegan. The main purpose of my post was money. I know it is an issue with you and colonics and supplements are very expensive. It just seems that low fat fruitarian is more natural and cheaper. But I did forget that you lost your hair with that. I was only thinking about the candida issue. I do hope to start blogging again once we have our foster daughter officially adopted. I just don't want my "crazy" diet to be a detriment to our adoption.

an experiment in happiness said...

Michelle, I love that you have such an open mind and are so supportive of what works for others. I think that sometimes, in the raw world, people get so stuck on the ONE true way. People are different, their bodies are different and need different things. I think raw food becomes a sort of religion for some folks and they think their way is the only way. You are doing the right thing by listening to your body and doing what is right for you. I have a lot of respect for Angela, she's living proof of what can be accomplished with raw foods. I believe you are on that same path.

chicorydellarts said...

Hi Michelle,

eating too much fruit or too much/little fat doesn't affect hair loss, it's mineral deficiencies.... Iron is almost always the #1 culprit, especially if you have heavy or long periods. fruit has very little iron. greens have iron. You can still eat lots of fruit, but you have to eat lots of greens on top of it, like, a pound a day. Then to compound issues, it's hard to absorb iron out of certain greens like spinach, due to oxalic acid. So better sources are kale and collards. I usually blend and strain with water to get enough, otherwise, I'd be struggling to get the amounts needed. Having red peppers, something with vitamin C, and fat help absorb the minerals with the greens.

Did you know that even if your iron is in the normal range on a blood test, that you can still lose hair? The lowest normal # is 6 and goes all the way up to almost 200... a huge range. Levels must be at least 40 to keep the hair you have, and at least 70 to regrow new hair. If you are deficient, the hair follicles are the last to receive the iron, as they don't need it as much as your heart.

Copper/zinc imbalance is another cause of hairloss. Fruits and vegetables are very high in copper, and very low in zinc. seeds, especially pumpkin, are high in zinc. Most vegans show symptoms of copper toxicity, even if their copper levels are normal, if the balance of copper to zinc is off. the optimal ratio for copper to zinc is 2:10, and most vegans get the exact opposite. Feeling extra spiritual or "high", vibrational, or disconnected to earth, etc. is often a symptom of copper imbalance. You should really investigate how many nutrients you are getting on a daily basis to see where you are chronically deficient, that would help narrow down a course of action, rather than trying drastically different things, because you won't know what part of the change is working, or why. I'd suggest changing only one thing every few weeks, to see if they give a result. Based on some of your past entries, your calorie intake looks really low, lower than mine and I only eat around 1400 -1600 calories a day, and I barely meet my nutritional requirements on that level without planning and making specific choices what to eat in a given day.